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tori_reviewsAnother MCU show down, see you later for Hawkeye
What If…1x08: What If Ultron Won & 1x09: What If The Watcher Broke His Oath
Well, I got myself into a bit of a situation here. See, as these two were a two-part story, I figured I could get away with doing one review for them as a set. However, I have very different opinions on the two episodes and now I have to try and pull those opinions apart a bit.
Here's my main take. Ep 1x08 was dumb apocalypse fanfic, but not all that bad. 1x09 on the other hand, was bad, borderline offensive, incredibly dumb, and somehow super predictable. I will say that it wasn’t boring (much), but that’s about the only plus I can give it.
The first part definitely had elements of the AU problem that, because it isn’t canon they can wreck the world to an insane degree that you know would never happen in canon. Which means the ways they would be able to stop the problem in canon just don’t happen for some reason in the AU. It then gets a little silly when no one in the entire universe finds a way to stop what you know would have been stopped if the writers cared about the consequences. Although they then come up with a ridiculous way that the characters actually can beat the problem that they shouldn’t be the only ones figuring out a solution to.
But I do like it as a Clint and Natasha story. It was a little…unsurprising that they ended up pulling a reverse Endgame with them hanging over certain death and having to let go, but it still worked. It was also a really bad plan, but I guess I can see why Zola would be the lesser of two evils; Zola wants control rather than destruction, so he wouldn’t just devour universes.
I really expected the use of Carol here meant some version of her was going to be in the final team-up, she’s featured in multiple episodes so it is a bit off that she wasn’t in the last ep in some form. But I thought she did too well again Ultron as was; she’s got a power boost from the tesseract, Ultron has all the Infinity Stones. This was somewhat true in Endgame, but being able to take a punch from a mad Titan is a different case from a fully comprehending robot who runs of the Infinity Stones. I didn’t love it in Endgame, but I found it easier to accept than this.
For that matter, I had the same issue with Ultron up against Thanos; one stone vs. five seems like it should be in Thanos’ favor. And raises questions about why canon-Vision couldn’t even go against Thanos’ minions much less the man himself if the Mind Stone laser is just that good. I will make partial allowance for it being Ultron instead of Vision and so more prone to quick violence and destruction, but it still seems iffy to me.
I thought I might do a bit on how I dislike the way the Watcher talks about Tony; but then the second part happened and I just got angry. For one, that AU comes out of nowhere which means one of two things, either it was only invented to be useful to the final showdown (when it’s really not, but we’ll get to that) or there’s a Tony and Gamora story out there that…considering the way this show treats my beloved Tony maybe I’m just as glad we didn’t get the whole story. Taking the same thing into account from the other side, if there was another episode planned, I feel like it possibly got shelved either because they screwed Tony over so far that even they knew they couldn’t put it out there, or they couldn’t find a way to write that story thread to this point without making Tony the hero he actually is instead of the awful person this show seems to think he is, and they didn’t want the contradiction. I know there’s a lot of nebulous ‘they’ going on there, but I haven’t decided who to blame for this show; especially the parts about Tony.
I’m sort of reevaluating my stance of shipping Steve/Nat in Winter Soldier. That stance has always been ‘I don’t exactly ship it, but I can see why people would. I’m also avoiding just going for the obvious pairing.’ Because I definitely find myself shipping Peggy/Nat a little in the same situations, so maybe if I take away the impulse to stop myself from going for the obvious pairing, there’s no real reason for me to not to ship Nat with whoever she’s working with. Of course, since I now hate Steve so much, I’m disinclined to ship him with anyone and I’m not really interested in retroactive shipping choices. Keep in mind how much I do not ship Peggy/Steve, it will come back later.
I am trying to apply the usual multiverse logic to the recruitment. That it’s not that the Watcher picked these people because they were the ones we had been watching, but that we were watching them because these are the ones who were important to the big game. I’m not sure how that fits with the Tony and Gamora world, because we didn’t watch them even though they turned out to be important. But I have a ton of questions as to why would the Watcher put together this specific team. Why not characters who can beat someone like Ultron or Thanos? Why not a smarter Thor? Why not any version of Captain Marvel who could tank for a bit? These things clearly happen at different points in the comparable timeline, so why not form a team of twenty different Thors from different universes and times? Or, you know, Hulks?
And the other side is true too. Why Killmonger of all people? In any universe he’s a bad choice. What purpose did half the team (including KIllmonger) even serve to the fight? Gamora brought tech that didn’t do any good and didn’t seem to do much else in the fight. T’Challa seemed to serve a point in parts of the fight, but ultimately not really.
I do get that the end implies that the Watcher picked a script that worked and that’s why it was these characters. But that’s not a very satisfying end to the fight that had seemed to come as a surprise to the Watcher up until then.
That Zola was going to be part of the take-down was pretty obvious once they got back Ultron’s prime world. And even more so once we found out the crusher wouldn’t do the job (though it would have still been part of the endgame if the Infinity Stones had been crushed as they’d still have to deal with the Ultron part). And that factor may have been why I found the fight underwhelming, because I was just waiting of Zola to finish uploading himself (which apparently now he couldn’t do?) and for all the stakes to change.
Another part of the reason why I found the fight underwhelming is that I don’t care about these characters. Thor’s an idiot, Strange is a literal monster, Killmongers is…Killmonger, I find T’Challa super forgettable, and…we didn’t have any time with the Gamora (who I almost forgot to include she was so underwhelming). I kind of like Peggy, and the Natasha they run into, but I don’t care that much.
Killmonger was at least revealed to have a larger part to play in the plan at the end, as he was significant to what they needed to do to actually win the day. But I still have a lot of questions about the makeup of this team.
And then we get to scenes at the end. Where I have things to say about the only two of substance.
For a moment I really thought that the Watcher had sent Nat to the MCU continuity. They have lost their Widow after all. However I end up with a whole other set of issues, since the timelines don’t track and now you’ve given that universe a hand up in terms of stopping the next few threats. Although I guess that might be alright since that world is down several heroes actually. Also, I don’t remember if this was the case in the episode that introduced that universe (as noted by the fact that I wasn’t expecting it when they had brought in elements form every other episode), but why would Loki have the mind staff at that point in the story arc? He got the staff from Thanos after he fell out of Asguard, which didn’t happen in that world.
And then there’s Peggy, and I’m a bit conflicted about her clear desire to return to her own time when the Watcher sends them home. I’ve always said that there was a point when I wouldn’t have thought Steve was a jackass for going back and inserting himself into her life. And I think around the time of Winter Soldier I would probably have still allowed it. So I don’t necessarily have a problem with that being what Peggy wanted to do in that moment.
However, it reminded me of fuck you Steve Rogers and therefore I end up hating it. Because even before we got to the credits scene it was a reminder that the MCU PTB don’t think Steve is a terrible person for what he did. I know it’s not really the same choice that Peggy would be making that FU-Steve did. The circumstances are too different for it to be treated as the same choice. But it’s a similar choice involving what are supposed to be nearly the same characters, so it gets hit with all my hatred for the Endgame choice in spite of it not quite being the same.
It was also a bit easier to swallow because the Watcher didn’t do it, so there was that and I was going to get to go on with my Steve/Bucky and apparently Peggy/Nat shipping attitudes. And then the credits scene happened. I do not like that scene, and we don’t even know what it would lead to (maybe we will, maybe we never will). I hate that the MCU writers seem to think this a good ship, when it makes me angry to even think about at this point. It’s favoritism to a relationship that I wish would go away.
Especially when this show practically shits on Tony/Pepper. Mostly because of the clear lack of respect given to Tony, shows the MCU doesn’t bend over backwards to give him a happy ending. I think it’s worse because they didn’t give it to him in canon either; they in fact took it away from him. They did stupid things to force Steve/Peggy to end up together (Peggy/Daniel forever), but not Tony/Pepper. So the last thing they should be doing is shitting on my pair in the multiverse.
What If…1x08: What If Ultron Won & 1x09: What If The Watcher Broke His Oath
Well, I got myself into a bit of a situation here. See, as these two were a two-part story, I figured I could get away with doing one review for them as a set. However, I have very different opinions on the two episodes and now I have to try and pull those opinions apart a bit.
Here's my main take. Ep 1x08 was dumb apocalypse fanfic, but not all that bad. 1x09 on the other hand, was bad, borderline offensive, incredibly dumb, and somehow super predictable. I will say that it wasn’t boring (much), but that’s about the only plus I can give it.
The first part definitely had elements of the AU problem that, because it isn’t canon they can wreck the world to an insane degree that you know would never happen in canon. Which means the ways they would be able to stop the problem in canon just don’t happen for some reason in the AU. It then gets a little silly when no one in the entire universe finds a way to stop what you know would have been stopped if the writers cared about the consequences. Although they then come up with a ridiculous way that the characters actually can beat the problem that they shouldn’t be the only ones figuring out a solution to.
But I do like it as a Clint and Natasha story. It was a little…unsurprising that they ended up pulling a reverse Endgame with them hanging over certain death and having to let go, but it still worked. It was also a really bad plan, but I guess I can see why Zola would be the lesser of two evils; Zola wants control rather than destruction, so he wouldn’t just devour universes.
I really expected the use of Carol here meant some version of her was going to be in the final team-up, she’s featured in multiple episodes so it is a bit off that she wasn’t in the last ep in some form. But I thought she did too well again Ultron as was; she’s got a power boost from the tesseract, Ultron has all the Infinity Stones. This was somewhat true in Endgame, but being able to take a punch from a mad Titan is a different case from a fully comprehending robot who runs of the Infinity Stones. I didn’t love it in Endgame, but I found it easier to accept than this.
For that matter, I had the same issue with Ultron up against Thanos; one stone vs. five seems like it should be in Thanos’ favor. And raises questions about why canon-Vision couldn’t even go against Thanos’ minions much less the man himself if the Mind Stone laser is just that good. I will make partial allowance for it being Ultron instead of Vision and so more prone to quick violence and destruction, but it still seems iffy to me.
I thought I might do a bit on how I dislike the way the Watcher talks about Tony; but then the second part happened and I just got angry. For one, that AU comes out of nowhere which means one of two things, either it was only invented to be useful to the final showdown (when it’s really not, but we’ll get to that) or there’s a Tony and Gamora story out there that…considering the way this show treats my beloved Tony maybe I’m just as glad we didn’t get the whole story. Taking the same thing into account from the other side, if there was another episode planned, I feel like it possibly got shelved either because they screwed Tony over so far that even they knew they couldn’t put it out there, or they couldn’t find a way to write that story thread to this point without making Tony the hero he actually is instead of the awful person this show seems to think he is, and they didn’t want the contradiction. I know there’s a lot of nebulous ‘they’ going on there, but I haven’t decided who to blame for this show; especially the parts about Tony.
I’m sort of reevaluating my stance of shipping Steve/Nat in Winter Soldier. That stance has always been ‘I don’t exactly ship it, but I can see why people would. I’m also avoiding just going for the obvious pairing.’ Because I definitely find myself shipping Peggy/Nat a little in the same situations, so maybe if I take away the impulse to stop myself from going for the obvious pairing, there’s no real reason for me to not to ship Nat with whoever she’s working with. Of course, since I now hate Steve so much, I’m disinclined to ship him with anyone and I’m not really interested in retroactive shipping choices. Keep in mind how much I do not ship Peggy/Steve, it will come back later.
I am trying to apply the usual multiverse logic to the recruitment. That it’s not that the Watcher picked these people because they were the ones we had been watching, but that we were watching them because these are the ones who were important to the big game. I’m not sure how that fits with the Tony and Gamora world, because we didn’t watch them even though they turned out to be important. But I have a ton of questions as to why would the Watcher put together this specific team. Why not characters who can beat someone like Ultron or Thanos? Why not a smarter Thor? Why not any version of Captain Marvel who could tank for a bit? These things clearly happen at different points in the comparable timeline, so why not form a team of twenty different Thors from different universes and times? Or, you know, Hulks?
And the other side is true too. Why Killmonger of all people? In any universe he’s a bad choice. What purpose did half the team (including KIllmonger) even serve to the fight? Gamora brought tech that didn’t do any good and didn’t seem to do much else in the fight. T’Challa seemed to serve a point in parts of the fight, but ultimately not really.
I do get that the end implies that the Watcher picked a script that worked and that’s why it was these characters. But that’s not a very satisfying end to the fight that had seemed to come as a surprise to the Watcher up until then.
That Zola was going to be part of the take-down was pretty obvious once they got back Ultron’s prime world. And even more so once we found out the crusher wouldn’t do the job (though it would have still been part of the endgame if the Infinity Stones had been crushed as they’d still have to deal with the Ultron part). And that factor may have been why I found the fight underwhelming, because I was just waiting of Zola to finish uploading himself (which apparently now he couldn’t do?) and for all the stakes to change.
Another part of the reason why I found the fight underwhelming is that I don’t care about these characters. Thor’s an idiot, Strange is a literal monster, Killmongers is…Killmonger, I find T’Challa super forgettable, and…we didn’t have any time with the Gamora (who I almost forgot to include she was so underwhelming). I kind of like Peggy, and the Natasha they run into, but I don’t care that much.
Killmonger was at least revealed to have a larger part to play in the plan at the end, as he was significant to what they needed to do to actually win the day. But I still have a lot of questions about the makeup of this team.
And then we get to scenes at the end. Where I have things to say about the only two of substance.
For a moment I really thought that the Watcher had sent Nat to the MCU continuity. They have lost their Widow after all. However I end up with a whole other set of issues, since the timelines don’t track and now you’ve given that universe a hand up in terms of stopping the next few threats. Although I guess that might be alright since that world is down several heroes actually. Also, I don’t remember if this was the case in the episode that introduced that universe (as noted by the fact that I wasn’t expecting it when they had brought in elements form every other episode), but why would Loki have the mind staff at that point in the story arc? He got the staff from Thanos after he fell out of Asguard, which didn’t happen in that world.
And then there’s Peggy, and I’m a bit conflicted about her clear desire to return to her own time when the Watcher sends them home. I’ve always said that there was a point when I wouldn’t have thought Steve was a jackass for going back and inserting himself into her life. And I think around the time of Winter Soldier I would probably have still allowed it. So I don’t necessarily have a problem with that being what Peggy wanted to do in that moment.
However, it reminded me of fuck you Steve Rogers and therefore I end up hating it. Because even before we got to the credits scene it was a reminder that the MCU PTB don’t think Steve is a terrible person for what he did. I know it’s not really the same choice that Peggy would be making that FU-Steve did. The circumstances are too different for it to be treated as the same choice. But it’s a similar choice involving what are supposed to be nearly the same characters, so it gets hit with all my hatred for the Endgame choice in spite of it not quite being the same.
It was also a bit easier to swallow because the Watcher didn’t do it, so there was that and I was going to get to go on with my Steve/Bucky and apparently Peggy/Nat shipping attitudes. And then the credits scene happened. I do not like that scene, and we don’t even know what it would lead to (maybe we will, maybe we never will). I hate that the MCU writers seem to think this a good ship, when it makes me angry to even think about at this point. It’s favoritism to a relationship that I wish would go away.
Especially when this show practically shits on Tony/Pepper. Mostly because of the clear lack of respect given to Tony, shows the MCU doesn’t bend over backwards to give him a happy ending. I think it’s worse because they didn’t give it to him in canon either; they in fact took it away from him. They did stupid things to force Steve/Peggy to end up together (Peggy/Daniel forever), but not Tony/Pepper. So the last thing they should be doing is shitting on my pair in the multiverse.
